Configurable holdtime of holding on to last known location data in Unleashed per Unleashed

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Unfoolishly
Posts: 209
Joined: June 24th, 2020, 2:43 am

October 5th, 2020, 2:16 pm

Hi all,

When using an external location provider (external GPS receiver) the "GPS"-icon is visible on the Nikon display even when the external GPS receiver is turned OFF for quite some time.
I am not sure on how much time the holdtime is set to keep the last known location data available in the Unleashed, so that the camera is told what the latest location data actually is, but to me it must be clear that the last known location stored in the Unleashed doesn't have to be the exact same location that currently is valid. These values can be totally different and can be even no longer valid data! So the Unleashed falsely reports GPS data towards the camera, while in fact the Unleashed hasn't received any valid incoming data from any source (either smartphone or external GPS receiver). To me this looks as a not desired outcome or feature.

Even when I have turned OFF my Nikon camera for 10min, while no smartphone or external GPS receiver was connected to the Unleashed after I first turned OFF the camera, the camera still reports in the camera screen that this camera has a GPS fix, even when NO DATA by the Unleashed was received!!!!

I am not sure if I have to qualify this as a bug or as a feature, but it sure looks to me that I - as a user - want to be in control of how long the Unleashed reports the last received GPS coordinates as valid location data. Turning OFF and ON the camera doesn't have any effects on the updating of the validity of the receiving GPS data. The Unleashed keeps on sending false location data towards the camera, even when no data is received by the Unleashed for over 10 minutes! Only after I pulled out the battery of the camera, the Unleashed finally drops the inserting of the falsely stored latest location data ever received by the Unleashed towards the camera. I think there is a fixed holdtime currently programmed into the Unleashed's firmware, but I sure would like to set this holdtime myself, so I can easily see if the camera really receives fresh GPS data, or if it is just repeating the last known location data, even if that location data has become invalid for quite some time!

It gives you a false sense of GPS data being received. For example: when the external GPS receiver runs out of battery power and is stored within your camerabag, you have no feedback that the camera actually is being fed false GPS data, because the external GPS receiver quited sending correct GPS data 10 minutes ago, but the camera icon of "GPS"-signal is still active in the Nikon screen.

I don't think that is a desirable option? Thus a "holdtime" that can be set is highly desirable to be set from the smartphone's Unleashed App. And even a checkbox option to indicate that if the user turned OFF the camera while no fresh location data was received for over a certain amount of time and the camera is turned ON again, the location data should be dropped and marked as "no GPS data" received.

At least, that is what I think should be more accurate with the truth.

I do know why this feature was implemented, that is: that the user still has a (small) period of time to overcome the "no GPS data" while switching to another GPS source or replacing a battery within the current GPS source. But after a longer period, false location data should actually be dropped and concidered false data!

Try it for yourself: use an external Bluetooth Low Energy GPS receiver and turn it off and see how long the GPS icon in the Nikon camera stays on, even when you have turned OFF the camera for a longer period! It keeps "on", while it should be "off".

My request:
- a configurable holdtime in the App and firmware for the "last known location data" within the Unleashed, before the actual receiving data is no longer received.
- a configurable checkbox to indicate if the user wants to drop the "last known location data" after the user has turned OFF (and later on has turned ON) the camera.
- a feedback (vibration/sound) in the App that the Unleashed did not receive any location data from the external connected BLE GPS receiver for some time. Mostly indicates: connection lost between Unleashed and GPS receiver and/or battery run out.
- a visual feedback in the Quick Settings Menu to indicate which Unleashed no longer is provided with the latest location data, due to external device problems (battery run dead, lost connection, etc).

That's all I have for you today ;-)

Greetings,
Unfoolishly
Caution: I am a somewhat pleased Unleashed customer.
Andy
Posts: 235
Joined: October 4th, 2018, 4:18 pm

October 5th, 2020, 3:08 pm

Unfoolishly wrote:
October 5th, 2020, 2:16 pm
My request:
- a configurable holdtime in the App and firmware for the "last known location data" within the Unleashed, before the actual receiving data is no longer received.
- a configurable checkbox to indicate if the user wants to drop the "last known location data" after the user has turned OFF (and later on has turned ON) the camera.
- a feedback (vibration/sound) in the App that the Unleashed did not receive any location data from the external connected BLE GPS receiver for some time. Mostly indicates: connection lost between Unleashed and GPS receiver and/or battery run out.
- a visual feedback in the Quick Settings Menu to indicate which Unleashed no longer is provided with the latest location data, due to external device problems (battery run dead, lost connection, etc).
- The time that GPS is valid will be configurable soon.
- You can already drop the GPS data by turning the GPS setting off.
- There's no sound/vibration, and I'm not sure it would be a good idea to implement that, but the Unleashed does blink red in these cases to alert that something is wrong.
- What's the quick settings menu?
Andy
Firmware developer at Foolography
Unfoolishly
Posts: 209
Joined: June 24th, 2020, 2:43 am

October 5th, 2020, 3:39 pm

Andy wrote:
October 5th, 2020, 3:08 pm
Unfoolishly wrote:
October 5th, 2020, 2:16 pm
My request:
- a configurable holdtime in the App and firmware for the "last known location data" within the Unleashed, before the actual receiving data is no longer received.
- a configurable checkbox to indicate if the user wants to drop the "last known location data" after the user has turned OFF (and later on has turned ON) the camera.
- a feedback (vibration/sound) in the App that the Unleashed did not receive any location data from the external connected BLE GPS receiver for some time. Mostly indicates: connection lost between Unleashed and GPS receiver and/or battery run out.
- a visual feedback in the Quick Settings Menu to indicate which Unleashed no longer is provided with the latest location data, due to external device problems (battery run dead, lost connection, etc).
Andy wrote: - The time that GPS is valid will be configurable soon.
Great news!
Andy wrote: - You can already drop the GPS data by turning the GPS setting off.
This is not true WHEN the user is ONLY operating the camera manually and trusting on an external GPS receiver only, thus not using the smartphone at all. How can a user trust the "GPS" icon on the camera (in the display) when the external GPS receiver falls away (either by going out of BT range, battery run dead or loss of connection otherways)?
I now did a "battery swap" (that is: pull out battery, push in battery) to reset the Unleashed so it would no longer forward the timed out false location data. Otherwise it would repeatedly say to the camera: here is the "valid" location data, while it wasn't actually receiving any updated location data for at least 10 minutes already.
Andy wrote: - There's no sound/vibration, and I'm not sure it would be a good idea to implement that, but the Unleashed does blink red in these cases to alert that something is wrong.
I do think some kind of non-visual feedback would be cool to have. Like: when going out of range, and the smartphone is the location provider itself (internal GPS of the phone is used). Somehow the user must be informed that the GPS location provider is out of range of the Unleashed. And while photographing nature, I have my eyes on the viewvinder and the object of interest, not constantly on the Unleashed LEDs coloring ;-)
Andy wrote: - What's the quick settings menu?
The Quick Settings Menu (on Android) is the menu that is sticky to the Quick Settings Menu :-)
Let me show you what that looks like in a single picture:
quick-settings-menu-android.jpg
quick-settings-menu-android.jpg (61.61 KiB) Viewed 1639 times
That is, as far as I know it is. Maybe it is called different, but I know it as the Quick Settings Menu.

Greetings,
Unfoolishly
Caution: I am a somewhat pleased Unleashed customer.
Unfoolishly
Posts: 209
Joined: June 24th, 2020, 2:43 am

October 5th, 2020, 3:46 pm

Hi Andy,

Here is another example of a Quick Settings Menu (it is called the Quick Settings Menu because the user can quickly set settings in the App without opening the App and just leave it running in the background). I see many useful features for the Unleashed App in using the Quick Settings Menu.

Screenshot of Musicolet App (Android) with Quick Settings Menu pulled down:
quick-settings-menu-musicolet-android.jpg
quick-settings-menu-musicolet-android.jpg (66.51 KiB) Viewed 1638 times
Greetings,
Unfoolishly
Caution: I am a somewhat pleased Unleashed customer.
Unfoolishly
Posts: 209
Joined: June 24th, 2020, 2:43 am

October 5th, 2020, 10:11 pm

Andy wrote:
October 5th, 2020, 3:08 pm
Unfoolishly wrote:
October 5th, 2020, 2:16 pm
My request:
- a configurable holdtime in the App and firmware for the "last known location data" within the Unleashed, before the actual receiving data is no longer received.
- The time that GPS is valid will be configurable soon.
Hi Andy,

Could you create four things for this specific point:
1. App gets notified if it is running and/or smartphone is within range by Bluetooth to make a sound or vibration. This means something is wrong. See also point #4 for the record of the timeperiod inside the Unleashed for how long this period lasted.

2. Let the firmware blink with some repeatness in LED color to indicate how much time it already is not receiving valid GPS data.
I know the holdtime for last known location can be set by the user in the App and thus in the firmware as a variable, but what I mean is: blinking LED colors for percentage, not the actual value in minutes. So if the user sets the "holdtime" to 10 minutes max. The LED starts to blink once per 2 seconds (25% of the set holdtime reached) = 2,5 minutes, blink twice per 2 seconds (50% of the set holdtime reached) = 5 minutes, blink thrice per 2 seconds (75% of the set holdtime reached) = 7,5 minutes, and fully ON (100% of the set holdtime reached) = 10 minutes or more. That way the user gets notified about the situation getting worse and worse. And eventually the user needs to act in order to get valid location data into the Unleashed.
If you take percentages, you don't limit yourself to fixed numbers, so the user can set any max holdtime for the "last known location" to be considered "valid" before the GPS data is fully dropped to "no data" at all (after the max holdtime is reached).

3. A checkbox in the App to turn this feature on/off, because sometimes the user doesn't want GPS data inserted into the photo's, or the user is in a situation where no valid GPS data can be received. For instance: taking photo's while climbing down into some cave. No GPS signals inside a cave, that's for sure. Sometimes the user doesn't want photo's to be geotagged due to privacy reasons. I know you can post-edit this out of the photo's, but sometimes you just want to share those photo's quickly with others, and are not able to editing them first.
It would be nice to set up some geo-fence, so the user doesn't forget to turn on this feature again. Now it is only not working within the set up geo-fence.

4. A checkbox in the App to indicate that the user explicitly wants to KEEP the "last known location" and to KEEP that specific "invalid" GPS data as a marking in the photo's that these photo's are to be processed afterwards to get the proper GPS data later on, post-editing the photo's. This means the points #1, #2 and #3 get overridden by the user and that the Unleashed intentionally writes the "invalid" data anyhow into the photo, even if the max holdtime is exceeded a long time ago. And thus that no LED indication occurs during this period, draining the battery.
The first moment the Unleashed receives new / fresh GPS data, the period over which the "valid location data" was absent is recorded into the Unleashed and is reported back to the App, so that the user gets informed over the period of time the location data was actually not the real data! This is useful for post-editing of the photo's.

Just my 2 cts.

Greetings,
Unfoolishly
Caution: I am a somewhat pleased Unleashed customer.
Andy
Posts: 235
Joined: October 4th, 2018, 4:18 pm

October 6th, 2020, 9:45 am

Unfoolishly wrote:
October 5th, 2020, 10:11 pm
1. App gets notified if it is running and/or smartphone is within range by Bluetooth to make a sound or vibration. This means something is wrong. See also point #4 for the record of the timeperiod inside the Unleashed for how long this period lasted.
The app is already notified about this and it is displayed in the app when you open it.

Unfoolishly wrote:
October 5th, 2020, 10:11 pm
2. Let the firmware blink with some repeatness in LED color to indicate how much time it already is not receiving valid GPS data.
I know the holdtime for last known location can be set by the user in the App and thus in the firmware as a variable, but what I mean is: blinking LED colors for percentage, not the actual value in minutes. So if the user sets the "holdtime" to 10 minutes max. The LED starts to blink once per 2 seconds (25% of the set holdtime reached) = 2,5 minutes, blink twice per 2 seconds (50% of the set holdtime reached) = 5 minutes, blink thrice per 2 seconds (75% of the set holdtime reached) = 7,5 minutes, and fully ON (100% of the set holdtime reached) = 10 minutes or more. That way the user gets notified about the situation getting worse and worse. And eventually the user needs to act in order to get valid location data into the Unleashed.
If you take percentages, you don't limit yourself to fixed numbers, so the user can set any max holdtime for the "last known location" to be considered "valid" before the GPS data is fully dropped to "no data" at all (after the max holdtime is reached).
That's not a good idea and I doubt we would ever implement that. Users (including you) already have a hard time understanding the "many" LED sequences of the Unleashed, adding more is just going to make the problem worse.

Unfoolishly wrote:
October 5th, 2020, 10:11 pm
3. A checkbox in the App to turn this feature on/off, because sometimes the user doesn't want GPS data inserted into the photo's, or the user is in a situation where no valid GPS data can be received. For instance: taking photo's while climbing down into some cave. No GPS signals inside a cave, that's for sure. Sometimes the user doesn't want photo's to be geotagged due to privacy reasons. I know you can post-edit this out of the photo's, but sometimes you just want to share those photo's quickly with others, and are not able to editing them first.
You can already do that by turning off GPS.

Unfoolishly wrote:
October 5th, 2020, 10:11 pm
It would be nice to set up some geo-fence, so the user doesn't forget to turn on this feature again. Now it is only not working within the set up geo-fence.
That sounds like an extremely convoluted way of solving a trivial problem if you ask me.

Unfoolishly wrote:
October 5th, 2020, 10:11 pm
4. A checkbox in the App to indicate that the user explicitly wants to KEEP the "last known location" and to KEEP that specific "invalid" GPS data as a marking in the photo's that these photo's are to be processed afterwards to get the proper GPS data later on, post-editing the photo's. This means the points #1, #2 and #3 get overridden by the user and that the Unleashed intentionally writes the "invalid" data anyhow into the photo, even if the max holdtime is exceeded a long time ago. And thus that no LED indication occurs during this period, draining the battery.

The valid GPS time is already going to be user-configurable. I don't really see the use case for this.

Unfoolishly wrote:
October 5th, 2020, 10:11 pm
The first moment the Unleashed receives new / fresh GPS data, the period over which the "valid location data" was absent is recorded into the Unleashed and is reported back to the App, so that the user gets informed over the period of time the location data was actually not the real data! This is useful for post-editing of the photo's.

Wouldn't it be easier for the user to just not geotag the photos? The user can already tell by looking at the untagged photos that the Unleashed didn't have valid GPS data, why would someone want invalid GPS data in their photos?
Andy
Firmware developer at Foolography
Unfoolishly
Posts: 209
Joined: June 24th, 2020, 2:43 am

October 6th, 2020, 1:14 pm

Andy wrote:
October 6th, 2020, 9:45 am
Unfoolishly wrote:
October 5th, 2020, 10:11 pm
1. App gets notified if it is running and/or smartphone is within range by Bluetooth to make a sound or vibration. This means something is wrong. See also point #4 for the record of the timeperiod inside the Unleashed for how long this period lasted.
The app is already notified about this and it is displayed in the app when you open it.
Indeed, I noticed this in the App. It says something like "there is something wrong with the external GPS receiver, no data received for a while". This is indeed useful, but that is useful when you have the App open and are within the main screen of that specific Unleashed. When you have the main screen open of another Unleashed you won't get informed by the App because you can't read what is not presented to you. My expectation was that it somehow gets signalled, either in the Quick Settings Menu (with a red flag or something like that, to draw attention to a specific error) or by playing a warning signal sound. Somehow the App must draw attention to the Unleashed that has something unusual going on, and that is not always visible to the user if he/she is in another screen active.
Andy wrote:
Unfoolishly wrote:
October 5th, 2020, 10:11 pm
2. Let the firmware blink with some repeatness in LED color to indicate how much time it already is not receiving valid GPS data.
I know the holdtime for last known location can be set by the user in the App and thus in the firmware as a variable, but what I mean is: blinking LED colors for percentage, not the actual value in minutes. So if the user sets the "holdtime" to 10 minutes max. The LED starts to blink once per 2 seconds (25% of the set holdtime reached) = 2,5 minutes, blink twice per 2 seconds (50% of the set holdtime reached) = 5 minutes, blink thrice per 2 seconds (75% of the set holdtime reached) = 7,5 minutes, and fully ON (100% of the set holdtime reached) = 10 minutes or more. That way the user gets notified about the situation getting worse and worse. And eventually the user needs to act in order to get valid location data into the Unleashed.
If you take percentages, you don't limit yourself to fixed numbers, so the user can set any max holdtime for the "last known location" to be considered "valid" before the GPS data is fully dropped to "no data" at all (after the max holdtime is reached).
That's not a good idea and I doubt we would ever implement that. Users (including you) already have a hard time understanding the "many" LED sequences of the Unleashed, adding more is just going to make the problem worse.
I think you're right about this. But my thoughts was with those users that don't use the App constantly, but mainly use the Unleashed directly with an external BT LE GPS receiver paired directly to the Unleashed. The user won't notice it directly that something is "getting into error". What I mean by that is: missing GPS signals that turn into false GPS data within the photo's. A clear red blinking LED pre-warning the user that the current GPS data is the repeating "reused" GPS data, not the actual "live" GPS data. There is a timeframe in which you can consider this "reused" GPS data as still valid, but after a while the user sure needs to be informed (by vibration and/or sound in the App) and the LED blinking on the Unleashed that it is no longer considered to be valid / correct GPS data.

Note: People really need a manual to determine all the LED sequences the Unleashed can give out. Any updates on this? Is the manual ready for publication?
Andy wrote:
Unfoolishly wrote:
October 5th, 2020, 10:11 pm
3. A checkbox in the App to turn this feature on/off, because sometimes the user doesn't want GPS data inserted into the photo's, or the user is in a situation where no valid GPS data can be received. For instance: taking photo's while climbing down into some cave. No GPS signals inside a cave, that's for sure. Sometimes the user doesn't want photo's to be geotagged due to privacy reasons. I know you can post-edit this out of the photo's, but sometimes you just want to share those photo's quickly with others, and are not able to editing them first.
You can already do that by turning off GPS.
Hahahaha, silly me... sometimes my logical thinking gets too busy finding "solutions" way too complex. Turning it off does seem to do the trick very well. Keep it simple, smarty! ;-)
Andy wrote:
Unfoolishly wrote:
October 5th, 2020, 10:11 pm
It would be nice to set up some geo-fence, so the user doesn't forget to turn on this feature again. Now it is only not working within the set up geo-fence.
That sounds like an extremely convoluted way of solving a trivial problem if you ask me.
Same 'problem' as above: my logical thinking is now getting an overhaul. Better be safe than sorry next time. I think my thinking got ahead of me, running off wild and crazy. It does that sometimes out of its own ;-)
Andy wrote:
Unfoolishly wrote:
October 5th, 2020, 10:11 pm
4. A checkbox in the App to indicate that the user explicitly wants to KEEP the "last known location" and to KEEP that specific "invalid" GPS data as a marking in the photo's that these photo's are to be processed afterwards to get the proper GPS data later on, post-editing the photo's. This means the points #1, #2 and #3 get overridden by the user and that the Unleashed intentionally writes the "invalid" data anyhow into the photo, even if the max holdtime is exceeded a long time ago. And thus that no LED indication occurs during this period, draining the battery.

The valid GPS time is already going to be user-configurable. I don't really see the use case for this.
I do see ONE usecase for this: staying at a location long enough, but having lost the GPS fix. Then you do want a repeated injection of "invalid" GPS data. It is not "live" GPS data anymore, but the location data hasn't been changed, so still "valid data" in terms of location, but not as in "GPS time".

QUESTION: Does the Unleashed take into account that the user wants to keep the inserted location data (which could be configured to 'endless'?), but that the TIME element of the "invalid" GPS data gets replaced by the TIME data of the camera instead, thus overriding the GPS time, which is stuck at the last received "valid" data? Maybe this is also an option within the App to have it configurable? A "takeover camera time when GPS time is missing"-setting?
Andy wrote:
Unfoolishly wrote:
October 5th, 2020, 10:11 pm
The first moment the Unleashed receives new / fresh GPS data, the period over which the "valid location data" was absent is recorded into the Unleashed and is reported back to the App, so that the user gets informed over the period of time the location data was actually not the real data! This is useful for post-editing of the photo's.

Wouldn't it be easier for the user to just not geotag the photos? The user can already tell by looking at the untagged photos that the Unleashed didn't have valid GPS data, why would someone want invalid GPS data in their photos?
Well, this is a usecase that happens:
Smartphone is running the App, receiving GPS data, but the App is set to "external GPS only". The external GPS device had a fix, but suddenly lost its GPS fix. Then you have photo's without the GPS information in it. The external GPS device had no fix, so also no GPS data in the log file!!! But the smartphone did receive the location data at that point in time but didn't log it to a datafile and it wasn't forwarded to the Unleashed too! Bingo! What do you have? Nothing! The period of time the Unleashed didn't receive valid data is not recorded in the App, but now the user has no data at all when he/she wants to geotag the untagged photo's afterwards in post-processing the photo's. That's a problem!

What would be useful is the following:
1. let the Unleashed inform the Unleashed App that the Unleashed is not receiving any valid data from its configured GPS device (this is already implemented PER Unleashed screen, but no sound/vibration/Quick Settings Menu pop-up to indicate which Unleashed it concerns). That IS a problem when you are actively within another Unleashed's screen, and not in the screen of the Unleashed which has the problem!
2. let the Unleashed App store in a datafile on the smartphone the GPS logging when an Unleashed is not receiving GPS data but the smartphone is (and the user didn't configure the Unleashed App to be a fallback for that specific Unleashed!). This way, the Unleashed App takes care of the "missing data" in the post-editing of the photo's, supplying the user with the geotagging data he/she needs for correctly applying the geotags in the photo's. Some users already requested this feature before: letting the smartphone App create a GPX logfile, not depending on the logfile of the external GPS device, which can be absent after all (at least not containing that part of the route in which it didn't had a fix)!
3. Show the App user within a "time screen" which periods of time the Unleasheds did not receive valid data, so that the user sees which time periods (and thus at what locations, if the user remembers where he/she went) the Unleashed had no valid data. More like such time diagram in the App:
overview-of-valid-gps-data-reception-per-unleashed.png
overview-of-valid-gps-data-reception-per-unleashed.png (25.03 KiB) Viewed 1619 times
When the user sees this picture/diagram, he/she knows that not all photo's have received the correct geotag or not at all received any geotag. And also that the Unleashed App has recorded the missing parts in a GPX file internally, so the user has at least some geotagging data. Because if the external GPS receiver had no fix, no data is in the internal log file of the external GPS receiver as well, thus missing the exaxct pieces of the geotag-puzzle!

Greetings,
Unfoolishly
Caution: I am a somewhat pleased Unleashed customer.
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